Alstede Farm Tragic Accident
Anyone see this? http://patch.com/new-jersey/mendham-chester/serious-car-crash-alstedes-farm-under-investigation-0#.VDsivN33aK0
Alstede has been out of control with the amount of people that goto this place. Now this awful tragedy.
Derek It was between two shutte busses-presumably the new free Chester bus. I rode that in May and, unfortunately, it's no suprise that people got hurt. Those busses have no seatbelts and drive quickly. Greatly convenient and free (of course) but you can only choose two out of cost, convenience and safety.
Lngvly22 I am not surprised,, I go to the Chester Meat Market and refuse to go on weekends during the fall. Traffic gets backed up for miles. I really don't see what the big attraction is. You have to pay admission just to get into the fields to pick your fruit. Go to Donaldson's instead !!
Mariann 
Spence another article seemed to describe it as a crash involving two shuttles involved in the town's harvest festival - going back and forth to the parking area on the edge of Alstede's farm, so may not have had anything to do with the actual business of Alstede Farms...
Just read about it! My sister was going there with a huge group of friends and she was sitting on 206 for a long time, but didn't know why at the time. So incredibly sad. Prayers for the family of the deceased :(
Sweetums 
just coach Very sad - my condolences to the family.
It seemed like everyone was out today; we ended up at Donaldson's and it was madness. I'm always surprised that people visit these farms filled with tons of children and yet are rudely impatient (especially getting in and out).
Bonv Very sad! This is probably the busiest weekend for Alstede and Chester with the their fall festival.
Mommyof3 So sad. All the farms were packed today since yesterday was a wash out. Prayers to the families.
Michelle cc I have not gone to Alstede Farm for 5 years as the place is too hectic. Fender benders were to be expected but not the loss of life. I do drive by there when I have to and the way people drive around there is quite bad for the area. Donaldson's is second rate in comparison LOL.
iJay 
SAAK A 19 yr old died in Spokane wa due to being hit at a farm while working and a young girl was killed in main when a hay truck flipped and now this , just awful , heartbreaking
Cowgirl1 We go every year for field trips. It's fabulous. I highly recommend the planting field trip. You plant your own tomato seedling in the spring and take it home. Mine took forever to bloom - I ate one tomato and may be able to eat one more before it dies. We doubled that up with strawberry picking. Really nice outing with our PreK kids.
Challah 
Mr. Tone 
stressed out As we were heading on 206N in Mt. Olive yesterday morning, we noticed the huge amount of traffic already starting going South. Sadly even though we are in the heart of "pumpkin/apple picking" areas, we tend to just avoid the area this time of year.
Blackcat It was only a matter of time before someone was hurt and my condolences to the involved.
The Mennen farm, farmed by Alstede,has been a major source of concern to Chester residents. On weekends locals cannot leave their homes because of the unregulated traffic flow on Route's 24 and 206. Complaints to Chester Township Mayor Bill Cogger have fallen on deaf ears. The incestual relationship with Cogger (Alstede is a councilman at large) leads one to believe that he condones Kurt Alstede's actions.
When challenged, Kurt Alstede shelter's behind the Department of Agriculture. He has covered all bases, he is a member of the local Fire company and employ's off duty local police to control traffic. The conflict of interest is glaring to even the most partiall Chester residents.
John Pew Let's take time to ask God to help the was that got hart at the Alstede Farms car crash. Also ask God to be there for the family that loss there love one in this. Also ask God to be there for Alstede Farms and there family going threw this bad time right now. God we'll be with you.
Iphone 6 Ort Farms is no better IMO. At least there are people directing traffic at Alstede. The Parking lot at Ort is a free for all with people making their own lanes. Our van was swiped yesterday and the f*cker didn't even leave a note.
By no means am I comparing a fender bender to the death of a person. These farms have become tourist sites and the mayhem is out of control. I'm really glad my kids are grown up now and got to enjoy these farms when they were much more sedate.
We had stopped going to Alstede when they started charging $5 admission to the orchard. We go to Melick's which is less crazy.
emaxxman 
Rebecka How about people just learn how to drive. You know how many people I could have nailed by the intersection of Bells Lane and Washington street in town... Almost daily someone runs the stop sign when I am on my way home. The people going straight by the Quick Chek have the right of way, not the idiots at the stop signs. Same reasoning here. Use common sense and tragedies like this wouldn't happen.
Metsman A collision involving two shuttle buses in the parking lot of Alstede Farms Sunday evening killed a 4-year-old child and caused serious injuries to the legs of a woman who was then airlifted to Morristown Medical Center, according to Chester Township Mayor William Cogger.
Four or five other people were less seriously injured, he said.
The shuttle buses were in an Alstede Farms parking lot about 4:30 p.m.,preparing to leave the property on a road reserved for shuttle buses when one bus rear-ended the other and people were crushed between the vehicles.
http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/local/2014/10/13/one-dead-accident-alstede-farms-chester/17176627/
OscamSeriously people are talking about what farm to go to? Corn mazes? Really? Show some compassion, please!!! A little girl just passed away! She is someone's daughter, sister, and granddaughter! My heartbreaks for her family!
http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/local/2014/10/13/one-dead-accident-alstede-farms-chester/17176627/
If the shuttle buses are the towns whop is responsible.
Poor baby girl.........prayers.
Christine How do you know the age and sex of the child? Article doesnt say.
God bless all the families.
botheredbyuu2 
Aquarius Seriously people are talking about what farm to go to? Corn mazes? Really? Show some compassion, please!!! A little girl just passed away! She is someone's daughter, sister, and granddaughter! My heartbreaks for her family!
Mommyof3
AMEN
Clyde Potts That poor family and baby girl. It cannot be debated that the auto and pedestrian traffic flow controls were unsafe. I hope Alstede Farm cease these weekend events immediately, until proper safety precautions are implemented.
Botheredbyuu2 - It was released, there are fundraisers already started for the family.
outsider Thanks mommyof3. I found that out earlier. Link others posted didnt give that info thats why I was wondering. That poor family. Mother and father devastated. Guess they needed another angel in heaven. Give your 3 an extra hug today.
The family of Elizabeth Fuehring has a gofundme.com site. They are trying to raise funds to assist with the funeral arrangements and medical bills. Link below.
http://www.gofundme.com/ellafuehring
Townie70 
auntiel Having lived across the street my entire life it is quite clear Alstede does not respect anything but his wallet. It has been out of control for years and he knows it because he sends the residents gift cards and letters of apologies. He has manipulated the laws and created streets for his needs without regard for any tax paying residents - often citing his service in the military as if that is an excuse for his behavior. People have stopped moving to the street b/c they see the absolute disgrace and circus that it has become and express concern that it isn't safe for their children. It's greed. The cops are in his pocket and so is the mayor - they are culpable b/c they have let this go on for so long. Create an entrance to the farm off of one of your roads and see how you feel. Create an entrance to the farm that crosses his lawn and let's see how he feels. The bus company will be blamed b/c its a corrupt operation and to pretend it is not is to be blind.
Joe Shmoe I couldn't agree with John Pew's comment more! The owners advertise to everyone in New York. Look around at the license plates the next time you're there. Buildings have a maximum occupancy law for a reason. So should Alstede. That many people in the area can't be safe. Well now this tragedy happens.
Other farms advertise to New York as well (Ort does too). Ort is less organized but they have more space and are on a less busy road.
The family must still be in shock, when the shock goes away in a couple weeks they will be so sad...
Joe last time I checked the entrance to the farm is on a major county road not a quiet residential road. What other entrance is there? Also I would think the farm gets as many visitors on a fall weekend as Chubb Park does during one of the festivals held there. There are solutions to the problem.
1) bring in temp lights to better light the parking lot at dusk
2) have the shuttle drop off at Chubb park instead of pulling all the way into the farm
3) if you want to get real creative build a walkway over the road from Chubb to the farm and have visitors that are coming from downtown Chester park in Chubb. The land that is used for the festivals should be rented by the farm during the fall as a parking lot.
Darwin How am I clueless? Educate me then. The only entrance I know is on a county road. If "joe" lives across the street from the farm then he must live on chesterfield rd which was built long after the farm was there. If the only problem during the fall is parking then there are solutions for that.
It is shameful how the Mayor and the neighbors across the street are all over the media whining about how much traffic Alstede causes, blah, blah. A little girl has died and a family is devastated - have a little respect and save the agendas for at least a few days.
Bonv - agreed about everyone needing to show respect, which is why I think it is a disgrace if Alstede was open for business today.
I don't quite understand why farmer Kurt is being blamed for this accident. An accident like this can happen in a busy shop rite parking lot. Or at Giants stadium, Yankee stadium. Or at a concert. Apple and pumpkin picking are part of the Fall season...this is what people do for fun as families. People choose to go these places with it being crazy and insanely busy. So why blame the person that puts enjoyment out there for families and try's to make a living?? Traffic is just part of it. If you don't like it don't go. This is what the public wants...if not then they would not go...city people love the country. why can't they come here and enjoy the open beautiful land...? God bless the family for the loss of their child.
I agree Bonv. RIP child. I don't like all the traffic either, but a time a place for everything. Debating this immediately after a tragedy without knowing the exact cause of it is ignorant and disrespectful to the deceased.
Bruin 
5catmom Is it really true Alstede was open for profit today?
That would be so disrespectful and such an unbelievable display of greed.
Come on, happiest girl, people need to buy their vegetables.
I agree with DB. It's a traffic accident that could happen in any parking lot.
Mark Mc. It was a tragedy for the people involved. It was an accident. Yes accidents happen everywhere. And a business is there to earn a living for it's owner and employees.
I saw on the news yesterday that it was 1 Shuttle bus.....then I read that it was a charter bus and a shittle bus???
what was it? I was under the impression that a vehicle ran them over...
BrownEyesGuy Article makes it sound like they were walking between the 2 shuttle buses (?)
God bless the family. RIP Elizabeth.
A little more detail; investigation underway to see if not just an accident.
So sad for the family.
http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/local/2014/10/13/one-dead-accident-alstede-farms-chester/17176627/
mistergoogle 5catmom...a business should also show compassion to the employees after what they had experienced less than 24 hours before. So I guess making a living is more important than the mental well being of his staff.
"So I guess making a living is more important than the mental well being of his staff."
You can have sympathy for others but not be completely debilitated by every accidental death. There are 2.5 million deaths in the US (not all accidental, but total). Can you imagine what would (or wouldn't) happen if everything just stopped for each one of those deaths?
Now, if a farm building collapsed or employees driving a tractor caused someone's death perhaps those more directly involved would want to shut down to process the situation, but this occurred in a parking lot just like it could at any crowded shopping mall during a holiday season. Sometimes it's better for employees to keep their minds a little busy rather than sitting at home in a dark room pondering someone's death. Perhaps the farm offered days off if employees chose to do so, but most people wanted to come in to work to help feed their families.
I'm guessing those shuttle bus drivers aren't just "making a living" today.
I am sure a huge percentage of their and all of their worker's income is based on fall sales; sad as it is, I would not expect them to put themselves out of business.
Nice try Mark Mc...the accident didn't happen in a mall, it happened in a farm parking lot which attracts families. This farm employs local people, I can only imagine how they are feeling. To open less than 24 hours after the accident and to have employees carry on as if nothing had every happened is absurd. Farmer Kurt could have closed for the day and had an employee meeting to discuss what had happened. The lack of compassion never ceases to amaze me. I guess I'm to small town minded...and proud of it!!!
Families don't go to malls?
What if it was a small mall? Would they have to close out of respect if something out of their control happened in their parking lot?
As I said above, I'm sure if an individual employee thought it best that they not go into work, the farm would understand and make an allowance. As a *business* and an *employer* the farm's duty is to earn money to pay their bills and employees salaries and they can't do that when they are closed.
If there was direct fault/negligence on their part, I'm sure the prosecutor's office and police would not have allowed them to re-open or use a parking lot with any unusual dangers (above and beyond simply having a lot of volume).
darwin brings up some good points and outsider seems to have a personal agenda that is anti-alstede,
nothing wrong with staying open for business, and you have no idea if the farmer had an 'employee' meeting or not. the fact that he stayed open does not mean he didn't either have a meeting, or mean that no changes in process or procedures have been made. you don't know any different, in your multiple accusations.
also, the comment about building roads across residents front yards . . . . ., that farm is across the street from the (almost) million dollar homes on your street that are all on the other side. whose yard was impacted by the claim of 'illegal' road construction?
life isn't safe, accidents do happen, and we just don't know the whole story here.
my heart and sympathies go out to the families who are suffering horrendous injuries and the loss of their young child.
happiest girl, (and others), it is not inherently evil to earn money, or work a job , or make a living,
BrotherDog Well said BD.
I am sure counsel has advised Alstede to review and or create an event management plan. Just as a Mass Gathering Act outlines, there are all sorts of precautions, guidelines and requirements based on anticipated attendance that are to be adhered to. These include such things as, parking, traffic control, first aid, bathroom facilities, security etc.etc. In addition I would think their liability insurance carrier would insist that something was in place and followed.
With the great success they as well as many other farms have had with Agritourism over the past several years, it would be prudent for both a farm as well as the local municipality to be sure any gathering or event is managed in a safe manner. Even with something in place unfortunately, accidents do happen and in this case it was very tragic.
Greg I never have been to Alstede's with my grandchildren. It always looked to fancy and made up phony farm for me. We always went to Orts. It was more a working farm environment to me. Thats about 20 years ago.
Old Gent Ort Farm had a monster truck ride going over the weekend. ....not sure if that fits into your "working farm environment"
I hear some farms even have electricity and flush toilets...
Way to keep it traditional!
So far over 32,000 has been donated to the family for funeral costs. A very generous outpouring for such a horrible tragedy. It's affected so many.
Denise Did anyone go past Alstede on Sunday? The reason I am asking, is I wanted to know if they had cones on the road, and were directing traffic as they were on Columbus Day when I went past.
As I approached Alstede, they had cones in the middle of the road and people directing traffic into as well as out of the farm. Are they doing that now because of the tragedy or did they have that Sunday?
Just asking68 They've always directed traffic on weekends in busy season for the last few years.
christography Maybe in the roads, but it sounds like there was no direction inside according to these reviews on Yelp.
"This place really was a zoo yesterday. Total chaos both inside the farm, parking lots and on the roads surrounding it. My daughter was almost hit by a car that was exiting a very, very packed parking lot. We left about 1/2 hour before this accident. Please please make your farm safer for visitors. The place where the shuttle picked up people was in a very tight area and people had to walk in that road to exit. I'm not surprised it happened and incredibly sad. It could have been prevented with better planning on the farm's part."
"A disorganized nightmare. Parking was a hell --- confusing and hard to find with spots that were not clearly delineated."
"No one was directing for anyone, maybe if the side the family was parked had more direction that little girl might still be alive."
"Forget parking, they cram cars into the parking lot and it is almost impossible to get out if you are not an experienced driver."
My Name is Donna Pewitt Wemple. I was born and raised in Chester, NJ. My husband and I moved away to the west coast in 1984. We have traveled home quite often. Chester has indeed changed. It is progression. I have seen it in happen here, what I now call my home town. We have a beautiful farm by us that provides the same atmosphere that Curt does for it's town's people. It has been a wonderful tradition that we started with our first born son. Still to this day, I make my kids go in the "Pumpkin Patch". They are 28 and 25!
I am so very sorry that little girl lost her life enjoying the pumpkin patch and that her mom and friend were injured. Words just cannot express enough.
I also have known Curt for a long time and I know he must be deeply saddened by this tragic accident as well and that he will do what's right. I have not visited his farm in a couple of years. But from what I have read it looks like he has tried to do good by the town to alleviate congestion and traffic. It saddens me to read a lot of these blogs. It seems like when a tragedy occurs, everyone points the finger and never really focuses on what really just happened and what can be done to move forward so that no one else has to suffer a tragic loss again. I hope the Chester residents can find a way to work with the farm to figure out how they can keep this tradition that so many people count on in the fall. Progression cannot be stopped. But, we can come together as a community and work together.
Peace be with the family of the little girl.
Donna Pewitt Wemple Since it was business as usual immediately following this horrible accident, Alstede should take every dime of the profits they made and donate it to the family.
Summer 
Troublemaker "I would expect that they will sue"
Who wouldn't. Poor logistical conditions at their facility resulted in the death of their daughter and seriously injured their mother.
People can claim what a nice guy Curt is, however his property on which he was holding events on was not well controlled or designed for the traffic they generated. Although it was an accident, had he spent a little money on engineering and planning, this could have been avoided.
I am sure that the town, other bus company and all people involved in running both buses involved will be named as they should.
I hope (and I am sure) that the family will get millions. Although it will not replace their daughter, perhaps it will make going forward easier.
Being millionaires wont bring back their daughter, so how do you go on, living the good life, knowing the money you are using to buy houses, cars, vacations, etc....came from a tragic accident that killed your baby?? I have mixed feelings about suing anyone. What good does it do? Maybe donate the money to a organization.
From the Daily Record...it's business as usual at Alstede's...
The fact that Alstede Farms reopened Monday "as if nothing had happened there" angered Alemany, who acknowledged the expression of sympathy on the farm's website but said she had heard nothing from the family.
"They did not send flowers. They did not send a card," she said. "What good is their statement?"
Staff Writers Lorraine Ash: 973-428-6660; lash@dailyrecord.com; Peggy Wright: 973-267-1142; pwright@dailyrecord.com
acl76 iI worked for Kurt Alstede for years and I can assure you that he never took responsibility for any incident at the farm relating to things that went wrong during standard operations. Employees were berated,humiliated and blamed for all the things that do go wrong in any retail establishment. No leadership there only hiding in his office or not answering his phone hiding at his house. Employees had to deal with unhappy customers and then he would criticize on how they handled complaints..
martha o'connell Holy crap. Why is everyone blaming the farm?
Blame the bus driver. Take personal responsibility for your actions.
The idiots driving in a parking lot are still going to be idiots even if someone is standing there waving their hands directing them.
A BUS rear ended ANOTHER BUS with a family in between.
Nothing the farm could do would have prevented that!
Josh I'm surprised that nobody is asking what the circumstances were with the bus driver. How do you rear end another bus if you are paying attention driving. How do you run over pedestrians and then rear end a bus if you are paying attention to what's right in front of you while driving? Was he/she looking down on there phone? I say the bus driver should have the biggest responsibility of this. I wonder what his statement was?
villani I'm sure all of that is being looked into. It's called an investigation. That being said I wish he would raise his flag back up. That whole thing seemed weird to me and a lot of nothing a little too late.
simo Not that I know this for sure as I wasn't there, but rumor has it that the bus driver thought he had his bus in reverse and when he stepped on the gas it went forward instead. Sometimes accidents just happen and this one happens to be very tragic.
It seems now a days everyone is looking for someone to blame, jail, take to court, etc.
My grandfather was taken from me after riding his bike across the street and hit by a car about a year ago. The lady that hit him
said she never even saw him coming. She could barely stand. My father called her and told her not to blame herself, everything happens for a reason and God has a purpose.
I'm not sticking up for the driver by any means but if it truly was an accident then he will have to replay that in his head till the day he dies, along with the family.
Livinglifelovinglife I'm sure the families involved in this tragedy would want everyone's support and not use this forum as an opportunity to 'monday morning quarterback' what happened.
RIP to the little girl...she was so precious and my condolences to everyone involved.
Instead of making comments on here, just donate to the family and pray for them. Here is the link....
gofundme.com/ellafuehring
Illegal immigrants work at this farm . Owner should be fined. It's all a shell and money game these days !!
Where do illegals not work? Try finding blue collar white folks who will do these manual jobs without taking a smoking break every 5 minutes...
Got proof was over there a few years back doing work there myself. Proof is in the pudding. If you ignore it than you are just turning your back on this once great nation .
"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding."
So where is the proof? Do you determine this after you got fired (at least that's what I heard happened......)
Here's mine: "Kurt has become somewhat of an expert on farm-labor issues, thanks to his 30 years of compliance and his experience with surprise on-farm inspections, he said. He employs more than 100 people each year. His workforce is a complex mix of local minors and adults, H-2A, H-2B, J-1, seasonal and migrant workers, hourly and salaried employees and family members."
http://vegetablegrowersnews.com/index.php/magazine/article/labor-department-is-targeting-farm-employers
You should be ashamed to spread unsubstantiated rumors. Or man-up and get the authorities involved with your evidence.
josh if you read my comment you didn't get the point. If Kurt stayed open for business as usual after the little girl was killed and others severely injured, and then opened on Monday {business as usual} what does that represent? Horrified employees of the farm that witnessed that death,having to still put money in the register,having to go home and deal with what they saw and to report to work the next day. Kurt was nowhere to be found but he always expected everyone to deal with his operational issues.
A child was killed. Kurt has children. Think of the mother that witnessed her daughters death. No word to the family from Alstede Farms? And there never will be. I'm not blaming the farm. He should acknowledge them personally and reach out. especially as the Christian he lectures that he is.
Todays news stated the parents are requesting any pictures / video that anyone might have taken at the accident site. Channel 12 NJ news has just reported that all 911 calls that were received are currently being investigated, and within the next 1/2 hour Channel 12 NJ news will have a report about this tragedy.
There is a lot of blame to go around and I wish people would stop blaming only the farm. The accident happened outside the farm in a parking field between two shuttle busses.
If you have small children make sure they are not allowed walk in parking lots/fields unattended.
As for who owned the busses: According to Chester Township Mayor William Cogger, one bus is owned by a Sparta-based company and the other -- called the I Love Chester Express -- was maintained by the Chester Historic Business Association, Alstede's, and Streets of Chester organization.
Jessica J. To everyone commenting that Alstedes should have remained closed and it pay for the funeral. Have you put your money where your mouth is? There is a page to donate money and help this family, instead of bitching out the farm for remaining open so they can pay their employees, shut your mouths and help. Come together as community for this little girl, not a lynch mob pointing fingers.
Jessica J
Yes, many, many people donated. Don't you follow the news?????
Last I read a while back the donations were at $38,000.
Now it might be more than that.
I wonder if Alstede sent any donation? The news said they did not even send a card or flowers to the family.
But all the money in the world won't bring that little girl back.
I feel terrible for the family that such a horrendous thing happened over picking a pumpkin.
@ Jessica
Many many people have put their money where their mouth is. Why don't you shut YOUR mouth. Are you here to say that Farmer donated as well? Or that he just went on, business as usual?
I believe the parking area is all part of the farm owned by the Mennen family and rented by Alstede's. It's all one parcel of land. Your asking people not only to blame the farm yet you seem to have no problem laying blame on the family of the little girl suggesting that they let her walk in a parking lot unattended.
Why is someone even suggesting that the girl was walking unattended? Both the girl and mother got pinned btwn the busses. I question the driver and how he could not see people walking right in front of his bus, hit them and have them pinned? Where were his eyes? Does not seem like he/she was paying attention
The kneejerk reaction is to try to blame something, emphasis THING. People are in control of their actions. Don’t blame the farm for an accident that people caused. Investigate the people involved: the bus driver and the people who were walking in front of the bus which was apparently owned by someone in Sparta or the Chester Historic Business Association which is represented by over 50 businesses in Chester, not just the farm.
2014 HCBA Board Officers
President: Kathy Barbieri, Chester Crafts and Collectibles
Vice President: Dale Blum, Academy
Treasurer: Lisa Jew, Perfect Treasure
Recording Secretary: Steve Jones, The Black River Candy Shoppe
Corresponding Secretary: Open
http://www.ilovechester.com/about.php
Josh T. Kathy Barbieri of Chester Crafts and Collectibles is President of the I Love Chester shuttle bus.
I don't believe anyone on this forum knows exactly what happened. Obviously litigation is pending so it will be some time before the details will be released, if ever.
I thought I saw in one account that one bus backed into the other one when they were, unfortunately, walking in between them.
Sounds like Jessica and Josh are part of the family and looking to point fingers at the bus company and drivers, the town, the business association, etc.
And Jessica even implying that the parent was at fault because the child who was killed was left to walk unattended in a parking lot (when that was NOT the case) is beyond disgusting.
Your defensiveness, attempts to shift the blame and lack of compassion are appalling. May the justice system make you pay handsomely if you are not willing to make amends, do the right thing and accept some of the responsibility, or offer any type of comfort to the family.
Rebecka, Wrong. I don't have anything to do with the family or their farm. So don't go there. I said don't blame the "farm" but investigate the PEOPLE involved which is more than just the AllStede's people but fell free to investigat them, too.
Some of my points:
1) Who funds the I Love Chester? It's really easy to just blame AllStede's but it's over 50 businesses involved and The Streets of Chester shopping center. The Mayor is on the news complaining about how many people are there, but he was a big time supporter of the shuttle when it started 5 months ago.
2) I also criticized the farm for for allowing picknicking in the parking lot. Riamede Farm does not allow picknicking for good reason and the other farm should follow that lead. AllStede's could also rope off the parking lot so people do not go between moving vehicles.
3) The the shuttle only lasted 4 months before someone died. That's a pretty poor record for I Love Chester. Does AllStede's and the 50 businesses and the Historic Chester District funding and operating this shuttle know how to operate a shuttle properly and safely?
4) Also, I added it may be the Sparta bus that is completely at fault so all of this is just speculation on who's to blame.
Nobody knows what the case is so we can all stop with the "that is not the case" and "make you pay" accusations until more facts come out in the investigation.
Josh 3 I wasn't there, but usually they direct traffic this time of year.
I know this won't be a popular opinion but walking in traffic is a violation and you can be at fault. When sidewalks are not provided pedestrians must walk only on the shoulder on the left side of the roadway not in between vehicles or in traffic.
We have all been in shopping centers where people exit the stores and cross the lot without even looking and would have gotten hit if we didn't stop. So it is not always the driver's fault when there is an accident.
A lawsuit or complaint against the bus driver would have to show that the bus driver failed to look out the window and check side-view mirrors and failed to yield to the right of way before backing up. If the bus driver looked and checked and had the right of way and the family was walking where they could not be seen then the family may be at fault, as unfortunate as this may be.
chris p This was not your typical parking lot or roadway so I highly doubt its considered a walking in traffic violation. Basically it's a free for all.
chris p
They were not walking in traffic.
It happened in the overly crammed parking lot. People there described it as an overcrowded, disorganized nightmare with no one directing traffic in the parking lot where the fatality took place.
People that go to Alstede farm walk around like they own the place. They do not look for cars coming down the driveway. It is common sense to look both ways before crossing the road. The Alstede family is very caring and would bend over backwards for anyone. For people to complain about the traffic, don't go that way. There are other ways around, yes longer, but go some other way. Everyone knows that there will be traffic so don't complain about it. I feel awful about the little girl and the family but really come on don't walk in between buses! Accidents happen. It's awful there had to be a death. And for people to say they don't let their kids outside to play because people go up the road to turn around... Really come on. That farm was there before you moved in. Should of thought of that.
It would seem if the experience you describe were actually a nightmare, families wouldn't return and the business would fail. Perhaps it is you who can't navigate safely outside a painted line. There have been more tragic incidents on Black Friday in retail locations...perhaps you should campaign against that.
farmgirl20 Again you're blaming the mother for walking into traffic.That whole parking area is chaos and its not a road to get in and out it's basically a lane. And as far as painted lines they don't exist. And yes that farm was there for years before the houses across the street were built but that's what it used to be. A FARM not a carnival. So maybe they did think of that.
Yes, there are some incidents on Black Friday but two wrongs don't make a right.
Blackcat- I also remember reading that they were walking between the buses. How else would they get pinned between them. Very sad and wishing nothing but the best for the family.
The accident did not happen in the parking lot. It happened on one of the side entrances into/out of the farm, not the main entrance.
nutty You can take this as a rumor, but a friend overheard one of the cops that was there, and he said that the buses were far apart. The driver was getting out of one of the buses and saw it was still in gear. He ran back in to slam on the brake and accidentally hit the gas, so the bus went flying into the other one. There was no way for a pedestrian to expect that would happen, as the buses were far apart from each other. I wasn't there myself, so like I said, you can just add this to the other rumors that are flying around this thread.
Rich How about people have a little freaking RESPECT for the families that were injured? A little girl died! These two families have been through hell (physically and emotionally).
I believe most of the people on this form have shown their respect and sympathy for the families. Of course, there are always the few that haven't.
The pedestrians were struck on Alstede property by an Alstede bus being driven by an Alstede employee. While waiting for the bus ahead of it to load passengers his foot slipped off the brake, hitting the gas causing the bus to jolt forward. The state of NJ will be responsible for the medical bills for those injured and killed as the pedestrians were struck by a commercial vehicle.
Weebiekins Weebiekins: u got a source on that since none of the media reports collaborate your story. Matter of fact they contradict a number of your points.
"The state of NJ will be responsible for the medical bills for those injured and killed as the pedestrians were struck by a commercial vehicle."
That's not an automatic rule and it's not because a vehicle is commercial/private.
New Jersey has "no-fault" insurance, which means even if you are a pedestrian your own personal car insurance (assuming you have a policy) will cover the medical bills. They can hash it out later with the other insurance company in court. Only if you have NO insurance will NJ step in to assist.
See Item #4: http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=18995
I'm guessing the victims drove themselves to the farm, so this is between their insurance and that of the "commercial" vehicle, which may be owned/operated by the local town.
Mark Mc. guess all you want. I know. Perhaps I can refer you to the Statute? Also look up Title 59 while you're there, in case you're ever wallopped by a government owned vehicle. Believe me, don't believe me. Doesn't change the facts.
MG: yes, I do. I'm cautious on this forum. Again, believe me, don't... Doesn't matter. Just thought I'd help put to rest the speculation.
"Perhaps I can refer you to the Statute"
Sure, please do.
Title 59 deals with claims against government agencies (which would involve government owned vehicles being involved in accidents). That's a lot different than *commercially* owned vehicles. I don't know who owned the buses in question. If it was Alstede's, that's certainly not a government vehicle and Alstede's insurance is on the hook for damage settlements.. If it was a co-op of Alstede's and other local business with the town of Chester involved somehow, that gets a lot more complicated.
"Just thought I'd help put to rest the speculation."
Without ANY corroborating evidence (which may or may not exist) your post is just more speculation. If you have facts, post them (with sources).
Your post makes no sense you say that it happen on private property, by a private property bus driven by a private company employee but then say the government is responsible for paying the medical bills? Then you say to look into a statue if you're ever hit by a govt vehicle which contradicts what you said that the bus was owned by the farm. Not to mention all reports mentioned that it was a town bus driven by a town employee. You have contributed no facts to this sad story
Sure. Whatever Mark Mc. You're right. I'm wrong. I waited 116 posts to pop on and stir the pot with my "speculation". You've never read the Statute, but speak with such authority on the matter. Gosh almighty I'm just in awe.
Anywhozzle, enjoy your day. You've won Hackettstown Life! :)
I don't get paid to explain or research things for people anymore Mark Mc. You speak from a place of authority on the subject, you must be familiar with commercial and personal lines auto policies and the Statute I can only assume. All you're cconveniently incomplete information from popular PIP attorney Springers' advertisement page show me you are more than capable of looking it up yourself. You're also free to call your carrier and ask them if you get hit by a commercial vehicle we they pay your bills? While you're at it, ask them if commercial policies in NJ are required to endorse pedestrian PIP. Good grief, if you're @$$ was on fire you'd argue with the guy trying to put it out. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. I found out the iinformation and posted it. It would take 2 sentences to tell you the answer to all your questions, but I choose not to on a public forum. Get a grip dude.
I just wanted to post this. The family is looking for somebody who might have info about the accident. I just saw this on facebook. Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/maribellabella/posts/10153435883144068
Bella76 You are the one asserting that NJ law requires the state to cover damages for commercial vehicle accidents. Post the statutes that back that up.
NJPLIGA only comes into play if the parties involved do not have their own insurance.
I'm not doing *your* research for you. Sounds like you can't back up your statement.
Mark Mc. You really have NO idea what you're talking about. That's the end of it.
So educate me. After all, you said it will only take two sentences.
You have typed way more than that in an effort to NOT post the information that you say is so readily available. Why is that?
It seems a few others here would benefit from the enlightenment too, right?
Weebiekins: A simple request for sources; if all you can come up with is "because I said so," well that's that.
To be specific: "The pedestrians were struck on Alstede property"
MG - true
" by an Alstede bus being driven by an Alstede employee."
MG -- don't think this is true. Think it was a private bus company, private bus company employee, under contract to a group of businesses, and perhaps Chester, of which Alstede was one.
"While waiting for the bus ahead of it to load passengers his foot slipped off the brake, hitting the gas causing the bus to jolt forward."
MG -- could be, but I can't find the source.
"The state of NJ will be responsible for the medical bills for those injured and killed as the pedestrians were struck by a commercial vehicle."
MG - I don't think so, see above. Plus I really doubt this group businesses would hire an uninsured bus company, if such a think exists in this state.
Just saying. Look forward to the sources.
I believe no fault medical bill coverage does not apply to commercial vehicles in NJ.
Even without no-fault why would the burden go to the state, as opposed to the insurance company of the commercial vehicle?
The tort system just means each party has to prove their degree of fault, which adds court costs.
I believe Reynolds is correct that no fault medical in the state of NJ does not apply to commercial vehicles. I believe there might be some exceptions to that.
Weebiekins-- from my quick reading, if sounds like the family had no car (and therefor no PIP coverage of their own), nor did the commercial vehicles involved (not required) and that's how the state ends up on the hook..? Or am I missing something here?
I'm genuinely curious, since apparently if I get hit by a taxi in the city it's still my insurance that pays (and then fights the taxi for the cost later), I never knew that...
Brendan Brendan - If that's the case, NJPLIGA would likely step in (and Weebiekins could have simply confirmed that after my first post where I said exactly that instead of being argumentative).
However, even that really isn't the "state" since, from my understanding, NJPLIGA is not a *taxpayer* funded organization. It is funded by surcharges from insurance policies issued in New Jersey and their member companies.
From their website:
"The Association is a private, non-profit, unincorporated legal entity established pursuant to the New Jersey Property-Liability Insurance Guaranty Association Act, N.J.S.A. 17:30A-1 et seq. (“Association Act”). The Association Act requires all licensed insurance companies in New Jersey to be members of the Association and contribute funds for its operations."
Brendan : NY has there own State Insurance Fund. Also, if you are struck as a pedestrian outside of NJ by any vehicle, commercial or private passenger you are not eligible for PLIGA. To apply to the fund, the loss must have occurred in NJ.
Whether or not the family owned a car in this case does not come in to play as the victims were struck by a commercial vehicle. Their private passenger policies will deny benefits if there is a household policy. Commercial vehicles in NJ are not required to provide a pedestrian PIP endorsement making The State Fund the primary payer for medical and death related benefits.
Oh Mark Mc. Hahahaa. Dude I can't with you. You're still wrong, but since you refuse to give up, by all means please keep educating ME on PLIGA and how it works. How many member companies does PLIGA have? Who are they? How does PLIGA receive their money from member companies? Do you have to live in NJ to qualify for PLIGA? What about the U. S.,? can you explain the Deemer Statute please? Can you also then elaborate on how it applies to PLIGA claims citing specific examples?
Enough already. Take a hint. Keep "guessing" you know what your talking about. I don't have to guess.
All of that information is available on their website.
And all of the information I can find still seems to support the fact that even commercial vehicles are required to have insurance to cover losses before the "state" automatically picks up the tab.
Sure it gets complicated when you have in-state vs. out of state, uninsured and under insured drivers, and commercial passengers vs pedestrians.
Would this shuttle fall under the definition of Motor Bus as specified in NJSA 17:28-1.5? If so, they require PIP to cover such an accident, correct?
(Image taken from document located at www.janmeyerlaw.com/njpip/njpipreference.pdf )
Another gem from http://www.janmeyerlaw.com/njpip/main_frame.html
"The idea that "commercial vehicles" do not require PIP and therefore are subject to PIP recovery is far less than accurate."
It's not as cut and dry as you are trying to make it seem. I didn't say the state would *never* get involved, just that it's not a given simply because an accident involved a commercial vehicle.
I still find it funny that you have not posted a SINGLE source.
Ask all the rhetorical questions you want about the laws and Deemer Statutes, but out of the variety of law firms that I've posted information from, NOT ONE has a clear cut statement supporting your assertion that a commercial vehicle involved in an accident will be automatically exempt from PIP payments because the state of NJ picks up the tab.
Bella76 - You might want to refer to family to Weebiekins. He/she apparently has it all figured out beyond a shadow of a doubt, so the mystery is solved!
You still don't get it do you? I AM the source. On a final note, there is a difference between Ped PIP and PIP.
I'll be sure to book the law firm of Anywhoozle Weebiekins if I ever get run over by a bus.
Additional information on summons, etc. here:
http://patch.com/new-jersey/mendham-chester/driver-farm-crash-killed-toddler-issued-careless-driving-summons-0
OnTheEdge Omg. I should of never listen to the recording. One of the phone calls you can hear people crying and screaming. It broke my heart. May God give the strenght to the family. God bless the little angel who die. So sad :,(
dsl102927 so sick, no one gets justice unless you can afford to buy it in this country, by not placing blame anywhere, the inference is that it's the fault of the people that were crushed. it was the mother's fault that her baby died. god damn this situation is so sad. kudos to the baby's family that are accepting of the outcome. I pray for them and I pray for myself, that in a similar situation I would have the strength to act with such grace.
This decision isn't a finding that this driver, or anyone else for that matter, is blameless. It just means the driver was found tobe not guilty of a criminal act. There is a difference.
Gadfly "so sick, no one gets justice unless you can afford to buy it in this country, by not placing blame anywhere"
So the flip side is it's always the *other person's* fault?
This was an accident, and like most accidents multiple parties share portions of the 'blame" - but it's no longer a criminal matter as Gadfly stated.
well Mark, I hope no one accidentally runs you over and if they do your family accepts that it's no one's fault. 'Mark's dead, but hey, these things just happen' /shrug.
Has Alstede`s changed anything about how they handle the traffic during tbis time, nope. They will loose money, as will Chester, can not have that. So nothing changes until some one with loads of money gets hurt. Blessings to this family. Alstedes = Chester better than you and they do not give two cents.
Agreed gadfly. All this means is the driver wasn't drunk or high at the time of the accident. Or cause the death on purpose. I can't imagine anyone wanting the driver to go to jail for this.
I'm sure there will be a civil lawsuit against the farm/driver/town.
One thing the article doesn't clarify is exactly how much space was between the two vans at the time of the accident. If there was a reasonable separation between the two, then it should have been safe for people to walk between.
However, if there was a separation of three feet or less crossing between the two vehicles would have, in my opinion, been inherently unsafe and not something I would have done. There's just such limited visibility between that type of vehicle with there being a small separation. In that case, those injured must share some of the responsibility.
I've had people step right behind me while I was already in motion backing up even with a backup alarm sounding. Luckily I stopped in time, but if I hadn't would all the fault be mine alone, or would the inattentive pedestrians also share the blame?
That being said, it was still a tragic occurence.
JerryG I'm confused with the statement the the white van "rolled" into the other one. What does that mean? Was the van not in park...perhaps neutral? Was it in drive, with the driver having his foot on the brakes but then took them off the brakes being distracted and the van rolled? I just don't understand how a parked van rolls? It looks in the pictures that it was level ground.
"While waiting for the bus ahead of it to load passengers {the driver's} foot slipped off the brake, hitting the gas causing the bus to jolt forward."
Sounds to me like there is "shared" responsibility in what happened. Regardless it's a terrible thing no family should have to go thru. Family of the child killed and the person who "accidentially" ran her over. Both families have to live with what happened the rest of their lives.
Sorry, but I have never had my foot "slip" off of the brake on to the gas. Maybe not criminal, but seemingly negligent. Most likely, the driver thought try the vehicle in front of him was ready to move. Also, always safest not to walk in front of a vehicle with a running engine. Sad any way you look at it.
maja I have had my foot "slip" off of the brake on to the gas more than once. When I have my foot on the brake it is almost equal to the gas pedal. I have a size 14 D shoe. It's more likely to happen if I have on sneakers on. If I plan on driving ,I wear shoes.
As I wrote back on November 4th, my friend overheard one of the cops that was there say that the the driver was getting out of one of the buses, saw it was still in gear, ran back in to slam on the brake and accidentally hit the gas.
That sounds a bit more likely than just slipping off the pedal.
Well, that's not the official statement the driver gave to the responding officers.
http://www.nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2015/04/driver_in_crash_that_killed_2-year-old_girl_plans.html#incart_river
Very sad all around.
Suits are coming: http://patch.com/new-jersey/longvalley/family-toddler-killed-shuttle-bus-plans-sue-farmer-towns-cops
"Suits are coming"
Yes, the ones the lawyers are dressed in... and the ones that will take a huge percentage of any damages awarded.
I'm sure lawsuits are coming, but what has been done so far is the issuance of Tort Claims Notices to the public entities. They have to be filed within 6 months.
Mark, do lawyers not deserve to be paid for the work they do? The maximum amount of money they will be paid is a statutory amount. For minors that amount is 25%.
Tracy Because I'm sure the family thought amongst themselves to sue the Morris County Agricultural Development Board and a farm in Plano, TX?
Lawyers got to them and generated a list of any organization with a wallet even remotely associated with Alstede or the shuttle bus driver/company. They are being played because they are (rightly so) grieving for the loss of a child, and some lawyers smell blood.
It's a lawyer's job to find any and all possible defendants when a suit is brought. It's based on something called the entire controversy doctrine. It's not about lawyers "getting to them". It's lawyers doing their job.
The family deserves to be compensated for the pain and suffering of all parties involved in the death of the little girl and the significant injury to the mother. This will be a lifetime of pain and suffering.
Mark, there's *always* someone to blame, other than those immediately responsible.
Tracy, surely you recognize that the "entire controversy doctrine" is more about finding ways to compensate victims and their families than it is about actual negligence. The whole point of it is to make sure you have "all your bases covered" - sue everyone and let the courts be responsible for removing the nonsensical ones that the lawyers throw in just because they can. No wonder lawyers have such a negative reputation (that is until you need one personally, then any type of morals go right out the window)
IMO it's just a continuation of the assumption of guilt that permeates our society. The exact opposite of what it should be.
Back to the topic, from everything I've read this is a terrible accident. I feel bad for everyone involved.
justintime Mark the Texas conn.ection is the Mennen family. They own the property. Kurt only rents from them
Mark- they have to sue all parties. The owners of the property have to be listed as well. I was involved in a serious car accident that I have permanent injuries from. The driver was driving a car owned by her boyfriend (also her boss). Since he owned the car and she was driving the car for work related, the boyfriend/boss and his company had to be listed on the lawsuit. He was also being held liable because he was with her before she drove the car and knew she was drunk.
No they don't Darwin, but maybe if they are they are held accountable it won't happen again.
No, they don't HAVE to sue anyone. And Alstede's does not HAVE to turn their parking lot into an accident waiting to happen every autumn, either.
My husband and I sat in over an hour of traffic to get past Alstede's on that day. As we went past, I watched the chaos in the parking lot and said to my husband that someone was going to get hurt there someday. The next morning I found out I was, tragically, right.
If I could see it, so could they.
Alstedes should have looked into alternative parking options YEARS ago. I never understood why people couldn't park across the way at Chubb Park? They do for other events. If he is as large a presence I town, and believe me he is, then he can do it. Hell, let him PAY to rent the area. Imagine that! Him actually paying for something instead of charging!? I've had it with that place ever since it went commercial and started charging for everything including hay rides to the orchards to pick the fruit. And Halloween! Kurt won't let his own family celebrate the pagan holiday, yet he has no problem turning a profit on it.
Kelleo22 There's a very simple solution if you don't like his setup... don't go.
Plenty of places charge for parking. Amusement parks, train stations, Main Street Hackettstown...
I never knew people were "entitled" to free hay rides, etc. I'll complain at Corrado's farm next Halloween too. The ride should be free if I buy a donut. Heck make the donuts free too. Greedy bastards.
It was a terrible accident, but that's what it was...an accident. Suing won't change a thing. As others have pointed out, no one forces anyone to go to Alstedes but people decide to fight the crowds anyway. Life happens.
eperot Simple solution, don't go? What's that that the solution for? Having your child run crushed by a bus?
And what does this has to do with being entitled to anything?
Life happens? Really? This situation needs to be addressed so it doesn't happen again. If that takes these people being named in a lawsuit so be it. It will never bring that little girl back and that family will never be the same but if they can help prevent that from ever happening to someone else I hope they succeed.
I find it refreshing that so many are accepting the fact that accidents happen and not everything is will full negligence.
Motor vehicle deaths are dropping which is a good thing, but we cannot (approach a) guarantee this won't happen again until technology is implemented into every vehicle for low speed accident avoidance.
"Simple solution, don't go? What's that that the solution for?"
It's the solution for not liking how crowded the farm is or how much he charges for parking and hay rides. Some people would rather complain, as if they are entitled to vast parking lots and free rides because they are so special.
Technically, because the lots are so crowded, Alstede could justifiably charge MORE since demand is almost outpacing the supply.
And since he charges for the parking, it is reasonable to assume vistors expect a level of safety. And since he charges for the parking, he most likely has insurance which will be tapped to pay for the damages - or at least in part. And since he charges for the parking, in a wrongful death case, he will be required to answer to what safety procedures were in place. And since it will be splashed all over North Jersey in the news, I might suggest the demand for parking next year will be slightly off.
Stephan "And since he charges for the parking, in a wrongful death case, he will be required to answer to what safety procedures were in place. "
Charging parking fees has nothing to do with that... if someone gets injured on your property are you off the hook since they parked there for free?
"I might suggest the demand for parking next year will be slightly off."
My feeling is that it will be just as busy as ever. Does Route 80 traffic decrease after there is a fatal traffic accident?
Bottom line he and everyone else named in the lawsuit are going to have to answer for this tragedy. This wasn't a public road but a farm lane on private property. I wouldn't want to the insurance company that covers it. I just hope safety measures are under way for some kind of improvement.
The families walked between 2 parked vans. Everyone keeps talking about safety measures and that when you park in a lot, there should be a level of safety. You never walk between parked or running vans or buses
They walked between parked vans. Yes it was an accident, one that should have never of happened.
"They walked between parked vans. Yes it was an accident, one that should have never of happened."
I imagine at the hearings there will be lengthy discussions as to what safety precautions were violated by both parties (the farm and the family). In other words, did Alstede not mark/block off the shuttle bus loading areas properly and/or did the injured persons ignore any barriers or signs that were put in place to direct pedestrians around the buses...
Agreed, nutty, and there is contributory negligence in NJ, so I'm sure when the time comes, the defendants will surely bring it up for its consideration with a judge, jury and/or arbitrator.
I fail to see how walking in between two vehicles with engines running is a risky act. It is commonly done at every crosswalk.
When I cross the street and get hit buy a careless driver who is not in control of their vehicle, am I at fault? I don't think so.
"When I cross the street and get hit buy a careless driver who is not in control of their vehicle, am I at fault? I don't think so.'
Think again. If it happens outside of a marked crosswalk you would be guilty of jaywalking, so yes, partly at fault.
New Jersey Statute 39:4-36 declares that “pedestrians must obey pedestrian signals and use crosswalks at signalized intersections,” and that “every pedestrian upon a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.”
http://law.onecle.com/new-jersey/39-motor-vehicles-and-traffic-regulation/4-36.html
So, to link back to this situation, if the pedestrians were walking through a marked shuttle bus area (i.e. not the crosswalk) there is partial fault.
Mark that's all well and good but it's private property. I'm not sure what part of that you're not getting. There aren't any pedestrian signals or crosswalks. It's a farm lane.
Holy crap, keep moving the goal posts much? Reynolds said he could play chicken with traffic and not be at fault, that's what I was responding to.
Were the pedestrians "breaking the law" at Alstede's? Probably not, since it was on private property... but that doesn't mean they weren't potentially partially at fault if they were walking in an area not intended for pedestrians.
Perhaps Alstede Farm is at fault too... maybe they're both at fault. It just seems everyone here has a personal vendetta against the farm, with absolutely no more facts available to them than I have (except the prices of his hay rides/produce which is absolutely irrelevant to the situation).
What if this accident had occurred at the other end of the shuttles' trip? It would be the same loss, same Alstede employee, same Alstede vehicle but at the train station. Would we be screaming the train station was negligent? Was it the train station's fault that the pedestrians were, very unfortunately, in the wrong place at the wrong time? Who' head would be on the stick?
Personal vendetta? Hardly. But as I said above, just seeing the chaos in that parking lot, a parking lot which Alstede's is responsible to manage, I knew someone was bound to get hurt. And I'm not a nervous Nellie, believe me. It was OBVIOUS.
And yes, weebiekins, if the train station was managing the parking situation and it was like that at the farm, I would question whether or not they had some responsibility in what happened. Absolutely I would.
the drivers foot came off the brake. Or he got up and thought the car was in park when it was in drive. I've heard both stories. Either way it doesn't matter if there were 5 or 500 people in the parking lot. This accident had nothing to do with the parking situation or how packed they were. It had to do with a human error by 1 person.
Saying you drove by and knew someone was was going to get hurt is ridiculous.
This reminds me of the great movie "The Sweet Hereafter", about a small Canadian town that loses many children in a tragic bus accident. With the help of a determined lawyer everyone in the town is swept up in the idea that there must be someone to blame; the bus manufacturer, the driver, etc...when in reality it was simply a tragic accident. It deftly displays the human need to find reason and causality in situations where there may be none.
When I said "life happens", it wasn't meant to be flippant. I feel terrible for the family affected by this event. But every time you get out of bed you risk something happening to you. My friend just broke his leg the other day rock climbing with me. It was a calculated risk we take in climbing and he came up unlucky. If you drive a car long enough, chances are you will be involved in an accident. And yes, if thousands of people descend every weekend in October to a farm for hayrides and pumpkin picking there is bound to be an incident eventually involving injury or possibly a tragic death. But there isn't always someone or something to blame.
It isn't about blame, and it isn't about vengeance. It's about determining if a dangerous situation existed that should have been dealt with before someone got hurt.
Luckily that's for parties outside this forum discussion to determine.
Everyone talks about preventing accidents from ever happening again. You have to realize that accidents are just that...accidents. They happen and will continue to happen because we are human and humans are fallible.
Jazzykatt Tracy, NJ is a comparative negligence state, not a contributory negligence state. In a contributory state you're claim would be denied if you are in any way found to have fault in a loss, even as much as 1% (insane right?) Comparative negligence barrs claimants from recovery if they contribute more than 50% of fault to the loss.
Thanks, Weebiekins, I know what comparative negligence and contributory negligence are. The term contributory negligence is an umbrella that encompasses pure and modified comparative negligence, as well as traditional contributory negligence. Traditional contributory negligence usually meant a total bar, but most states have some form of comparative now.
Here is an update on the tragedy. God Bless the family. :-( I wonder how the amount of the fine was determined?
http://patch.com/new-jersey/mendham-chester/239-fine-shuttle-driver-fatal-farm-crash-killed-toddler-0
Cbird May not be the end of the story.
There's still a potential for civil suit(s) and a reckless driving conviction helps. Doubt they would get much from the driver but sometimes it's the penalty alone that matters. Not sure if they can get Alstede since that's where the money will be but probably a chance.
http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/local/2015/07/07/alstede-farms-driver-gets-fine-fatal-accident/29815219/
strangerdanger strangerdanger,
There's a world of difference between Reckless driving and Careless Driving.
You're right, 2pts versus 5pts. Reckless would be a slam dunk against the driver. Careless still helps the civil case against the driver.
They shouldn't have been walking between 2 shuttle busses. The driver probably never even saw them.
Girl's mother also should add a "family friend" to the list of defendants because she/he contributed to the tragic event somehow. And actually the girl's father/grandparents should be suing girl's mother for not being careful. And DYFS (or whatever it's called now) should be suing mother for negligence and putting a girl in a danger situation. I am sure, attorneys can recommend a few more cases to work with.
It was an accident, very tragic accident.
Lena whatever the case, i don't go there anymore. gives me chills every time I drive by it, which unfortunately is daily.
brown bear2 The lawsuit is against Chester Borough and The Streets of Chester - in addition to Alstede's and the driver? Wow. How sad. There are sickening lawyers behind this.
My prayers go out to this poor woman. She must be in so much pain, that she thinks a monetary award will somehow make sense, or give a sense of justice, to this horrible tragedy.
MAN IMHO the lawsuit is fair and proper. I do not see frivolous in this one. No criminality was found; the lawsuit was about negligence. The only punishment if found guilty is money; that's just the law. Who might be negligent: the driver for sure but face it no money, no harm to anyone if found guilty. The farm owner: hey maybe they should have had better parking and pedestrian markings, let's find out. The bus company: maybe they should have trained this driver or had better safety equipment to operate in that venue, let's find out. The town: they hired the bus company and mapped the route: were they negligent in their hiring or planning?
While money is the only positive result for the family, the rest of us might benefit from folks recognizing what is judged as negligence in these areas which can make our world safer going forward. There might even be laws and regulations generated to help avoid such pains in the future. The "judge" will be our peers so MAN's view, my view, and others will judge the outcome. Except for the driver, there won't be that much pain by the other players --- they have insurance so any monetary loss will be stretched out over decades of increased insurance bills. If there's any pain at all.
So I say civil suits may not satisfy the originator since money won't fix the reasons but can be good for the rest of us by providing benchmarks as to what we, the jury, feels are negligent actions.
Hi Strangedanger. I tried to understand your rational here; I try to be open to different viewpoints.
This incident was investigated, and determinations made as to "fault". Where does an unfortunate accident fit into your quantification? Careful agency hiring and selection, employee training, and site markings for pedestrians all couldn't have prevented these people from walking in between those vehicles. I find it unimaginably horrible. But it happened.
My point is that suing the towns, and the farm don't accomplish any good. A benchmark for negligent actions? IMHO common sense prevails; these actions do more to muddy the waters, and encourage a "blame" mentality. Sometimes things happen in life that are cruel, tragic and unfair. That doesn't justify seeking out someone to pin the blame on, or to pay. And whether it is an insurance company, or private entity - we all pay when these actions begin to set unreasonable liability and compensation standards.
unfortunately we live in an environment where we are "legal-happy." and some lawyer talked these people to keeping their wound open to sue all these other parties. What this family needs to do is start their healing process. No amount of money will bring back their little girl.
Don't understand, "site markings for pedestrians all couldn't have prevented these people from walking in between those vehicles." Perhaps if there were pedestrian crossings they would have used them and they wouldn't have to walk between vehicles on that back road.
"This incident was investigated, and determinations made as to "fault"." Yes and that was a criminal investigation. This is probably a court case on negligence and that's a different animal.
That said, I agree frivolous lawsuits are wrong and lawyers engaging in such should be fined heavily if not having their license to practice law removed. They should be held responsible for bringing such lunacy to the court. That's up to the judge.
"Negligence.... is a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances. The area of tort law known as negligence involves harm caused by carelessness, not intentional harm."
IMHO this case falls into that area of the law and is worthy of being brought before a jury of peers. There's a chance that somebody in that chain of litigants did not exercise prudent care, not that they were intentionally looking to cause harm.
Sue13 - I share your feelings. You expressed the point I was trying to make:
All this discussion about negligence or intent is fundamentally irrelevant. The circumstances here simply don't warrant this extensive legal action.
I agree with you. Time to heal.
So you have already reviewed all the facts in the litigants entire case before they have presented it to the court and jury MAN?
Is that why you can judge both the case and what the family should do to heal?
A bus drove into another bus in a busy parking lot while two people were between the bumpers. The were professional drivers in a professional service selected by the town to go to commercial concerns like this farm stand that has a very busy and highly congested parking lot during the Fall season. While no criminal charges were found and nothing intentional is being charged, how did you determine that everyone involved exercised the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances?
From NJ Motor Vehicle Commission site:
" They [pedestrians and joggers] should cross at crosswalks only on the proper signal, look all ways before crossing, avoid crossing between parked vehicles,..."
I completely agree with Sue13. It's time to start healing process, not drag everyone into endless law cases and countercases.
When I engage in some of these exchanges of opinion, I try to address the issues, not attack the person commenting. SD - I do not presume to know all the details of this case. My comment was addressing what I consider excessive, and far reaching litigation, on an incident that has been investigated, and concluded.
I would also like to point out that when the conversation begins to examine pedestrian crossings, and signals, we are speculating on issues of human behavior and error. The decision to walk between these vehicles was an error. This is a farm activity that draws lots of people, not a crosswalk in town or the city. Signs and ropes can be placed around the animals, but it cannot prevent someone, or someone's child, from crossing them, and maybe getting bit or kicked.
I'm done with this, but would just like to reiterate my initial opinion, that accidents happen, and sometimes the consequences are tragic. Every time we, as a society, seek to find someone to blame, someone to pay, we propagate the attitudes and behaviors that are not dissimilar to revenge. Again, my opinion, this will do no good, no matter how it plays out. It will not heal their broken hearts, nor prevent accidents like this from ever happening again.
Thank you for the opportunity to express my opinion. I hope we will all continue to sent healing prayers and thoughts to this family.
I was not attacking the person but what the person said. Sorry if you took it differently.
"I do not presume to know all the details of this case."
Either do I so how can either of us say this specific case is excessive or not needed by the family to heal?
And when you say "incident that has been investigated, and concluded" again, that is for the criminal issue NOT the civil or negligence issue. The suit is not to re-examine what was concluded but to investigate whether negligence, as defined above, is warranted.
Like a simple point. You noted they shouldn't have walked between the vehicles. Well, did they have a choice? How far apart were the vehicles --- 1 foot, 5 feet, 20 feet. Or how about what if Town was offering free puppies and Alstede had placed basket of puppies just beyond the vehicles with a "first five free" sign on it. OK probably not on that one.
Point is a child was killed in a tragic accident that no matter what they did wrong, should not have happened. Buses are not supposed to run into each other in parking lots. And especially not when people are between them.
Now I don't know if anyone was negligent or not. But I am willing to say, IMHO, that this one does not scream frivolous on it's reports and sounds like it's worth going through the process of a civil hearing to determine if anyone was negligent. And beyond people saying we're a litigious nation with too many hack lawyers conflating too many accidents into money making ventures via legal shenanigans and that the family should know that money can't bring her back so get on with the healing for goodness sake, I don't see any facts that say this case is frivolous.
Matter of fact after you and I started our back n forth, I re-read the thread from the top and, according to a number of folks, this place might be negligent in providing adequate safety for access to the property. Again, I don't know but seems worth the civil case given the loss. I just don't see frivolous anywhere on this one.
The streets if Chester and Chester borough should inNO WAY be held accountable for this tragic accident. The sh*tshow deemed "Alstede farms" is entirely at fault. If it wasn't for their poor planning, and even worse parking judgement there would not have been an accident. When several thousand people are in a given area more care should be taken by the property and land owner, not the township. He is the one at fault, on his property, it's his problem. I would love to have that place shut down.
Just to make something clear here. This women made the choice to walk between these vehicles. She tried to get on the first bus and was told to please wait as they were full and the next shuttle bus would pull up for her. Instead she walked in front of the first bus and then proceeded to walk between the two buses so she could get on that one instead of waiting like she was told. This information comes first hand.
It is very tragic, but it was an unfortunate decision that this mother made instead of patiently waiting. Healing is definitely needed at this time and the more time the lawyers drag this out (probably for their own gain) the longer the healing process will take. This is most definitely such a sad, sad thing to happen. I cannot even imagine.
heartbroken So Kelleo22,
If you have a party at your house and you have people park in your driveway and one of your party goers hits someone, or someones car, it is your fault because it happened on your property?
Just asking....
Jane123 You People have no ideal what a commercial money market Farm Stand this isAlstedes never a real fruit, Vegatable Market. Ort Farm puts Alstedes to shame, Orts has been Farmers for a 100 years, Alsteads could never say that.
Paulette, I'll bet you'll regret posting this in the morning (most of us, including me,have had our moments - so no biggie.)
To survive as a small farm in NJ...and most anywhere in the country...you have to go with the "value-add" model. Fruit and veggies are a commodity now and you would go broke trying to get by selling into that market.
You also have to "make hay when the sun shines", meaning that fall is their peak season and you'll get the cider, the hayrides, corn mazes, donuts, pies... and even food truck festivals.
These farms employ a lot of people, pay all the related taxes and try to comply with continually-changing regulations.
All with money from stuff they planted, which may or may not grow well...and even if it does, much can be destroyed by weather conditions that can change overnight.
Because of what I do, I have some interaction with the farms you speak of, as well as a few more in the area.
The Orts and Alstede's are good people who work hard, as are most of the farmers hereabouts.
jjmonth4 These farms/amusement areas may not be perfect but they are a million times better than corporations that outsource their workers. What I don't like to see from these types of operations is when they hire temporary workers on visas. Raise your pay until local workers take the jobs, that is supply and demand, not bringing in workers from other countries-and this includes seasonal workers as well.
Dodgebaal Paulette,
Farmers are one of the essential backbones of this country , if you wish to be critical of them, try working thru just one harvest ….I am certain you would not survive and would come away with a "realigned " mindset as well as a huge respect for what they do for all of us.
steven Raise your pay until local workers take the jobs,
——
That’s just it, though. Why would any employer pay more when they have people willing to work for far less? And that goes for people of both parties, no matter which side of the immigration problem they come down on. When it comes to somebody’s own pocket, they are all hypocrites.
EweIdjits Alstede’s Amusment Park ( aka farm “stand”)
Creates an unsafe and dangerous environment in the name of the Almighty Buck.
Their attraction overloads the sparse access to the “farm stand” and gridlocks the entire area.
Eff the locals- they’re making $$$$.
I won’t spend one thin dime there.
Stymie These workers that are here on visas are the only people who work these type of jobs and they make good money. The government controls how many workers these businesses can apply for and usually they do not allow enough men to enter the country as is needed to make these farms work efficiently. Alstede's seems a little excessive and expensive, but he has to account for the people who sit in the fields and eat his products without paying for them, which is stealing. Farmers do not make a lot of money and they are just trying to make a living. I give farmers a lot of credit because they work ridiculous hours all year around and don't make much money. They have a very difficult time finding reliable and competent people to work for them, hence why they work so hard. People have no problem buy a cell phone for $800 but complain when they have to pay an entry fee into a farm to cover the loss of product from people eating while picking.
"Why would any employer pay more when they have people willing to work for far less?"
"These workers that are here on visas are the only people who work these type of jobs and they make good money. The government controls how many workers these businesses can apply for and usually they do not allow enough men to enter the country as is needed to make these farms work efficiently."
The government should allow zero workers on visas. After that, let supply and demand (the natural order) be the deciding factor. This manipulation of the supply and demand is controlled by lobbyists from different industries in order to line their pockets.
"People have no problem buy a cell phone for $800." You think $800 is expensive? Try making one in America, without child labor and environmental laws. Let's not forget that there is a profit margin of 50-60 percent on these, so an 800.00 phone costs 400 to make.
A little dated, but the profits are still roughly the same:
"So, the total should actually be Is Apple actually making more than $290 from every $650 iPhone sold? Most likely, yes. Keep in mind that while the $750 32GB model and $850 64GB model cost up to $30 more to produce, they each net another $70 in sales. Sales of the iPhone 4S and 4 likely make a heftier profit as well, since their components have come down in price. With that in mind, a 50-61 percent profit margin doesn’t seem out of reach, though there could be costs that we miscalculated or did not fully account for in our guestimations. Bottom line, though: Roughly half, or more, of every iPhone sale is profit."
We have a systemic problem. Americans today don't want to do these jobs which have low pay and little to no benefits. Put your head under the covers (not directed at any individual but rather society in general) doesn't make the problem go away.
...and don't think that China wants to be cheap labor forever. This is just a stepping stone, eventually we will have to look elsewhere for cheap labor (Africa?) and robotics over time will introduce disruption into how we live. Given enough time, you will experience disruption of your life experience...
It may actually force the low paying type jobs to raise wages and offer benefits. This would be very beneficial for the younger crowd. It may make product cost more,but that's the way it should be... Not hiring cheap workers because they are possibly illegal is a big step in a positive direction for everyone.
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